Curse

Reverend Dr · Jun 04, 2010, 06:07 AM // 06:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajc2123

That's the assassin class dude. It either does that or dies. Only way to fix is a complete re-haul or deletion of the class.

A re-haul is essentially deleting the class then replacing it with something new, so eitherway the first step is to delete the assassin class. I'm glad we reached an agreement.

dusanyu · Jun 04, 2010, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

And Dev-hammer qlocking isn't easy?

Q knocking between dev hammer and bash requires timing if you just mashed like as sin your hammer bash would land on a knocked foe wasting it.

Terrible Surgeon · Jun 07, 2010, 07:36 AM // 07:36

Yeah i could cry about monks spamming heals i guess. i mean i see a lot of shitter monks spamming heals like they have 1000 energy then they hit bonettis defense right b4 a warrior murders them. Point being, we all have a bitch, i think mesmers are OP and i think Bsurge eles are brainless RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOs. ADAPT AND GET OVER 2 SKILLS THAT U DISLIKE!!! I mean really, compared to other things, sins are far less broken.

Morphy · Jun 07, 2010, 09:13 AM // 09:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terrible Surgeon

Yeah i could cry about monks spamming heals i guess. i mean i see a lot of shitter monks spamming heals like they have 1000 energy then they hit bonettis defense right b4 a warrior murders them. Point being, we all have a bitch, i think mesmers are OP and i think Bsurge eles are brainless RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOs. ADAPT AND GET OVER 2 SKILLS THAT U DISLIKE!!! I mean really, compared to other things, sins are far less broken.

That Monk strategy reminds me of Ranger interrupt spam, a lame tactic that some noobs use. It's extremely easy to dodge as those interrupts have an aftercast in which the victim's spells can be casted. Those strategies are terrible in terms of effectiveness and requires very little synaptic contact, much like the FF/JS builds.

Now, before you start cheering, there is a fundamental difference between these two things: Monk builds will generally be used in a skillful way. People will always find ways to simplify proper builds so that even they can use it. If any of those simplifications become too powerful, actions should be taken. Generally, though, this is not needed. Gimmicks such as FF/JS builds, however, are supposed to be spammed. There are no proper builds that come from those skills.

This is why FF/JS is broken and Monk skills are not. Blinding Surge and some Mesmer builds (such as the extremely gay VoR build) are in the same boat and should get the same treatment: kill, then rework.

Terrible Surgeon · Jun 08, 2010, 08:51 AM // 08:51

Yeah, i guess i can see your point when i start thinking of other skills like wastrels worry. That is a spam skill that causes other people to spam ...xD

Morphy · Jun 08, 2010, 03:44 PM // 15:44

I actually have a name for this kind of stuff.

Explicit gimmickry: Skills such as JS and FF which are so lame that their only purpose is to be used in gimmicks.
Implicit gimmickry: Skills that require skill to play that are used in an improper way, simplifying gameplay for the user at the cost of effectiveness.

Implicit gimmickry will always happen because people will always find ways to commit it. It's unavoidable.
Explicit gimmickry can be avoided because the skills that are used for it can be reworked. After all, the skills don't have a proper usage anyway.

Skyy High · Jun 08, 2010, 04:19 PM // 16:19

There are spam skills in every profession though. Why is it such a big deal that a sin can make a weak, bad, spammy build, when you can do the same damn thing with a warrior, derv, or indeed any other physical class? Again, the only reason that there is ever any reason to complain about these skills is if they do an undue amount of damage/disruption/protection/whatever for the effort (or lack thereof) put into the build. Beyond that, let bad players have their bad builds.

Not every skill is designed with high-end PvP in mind, remember that. In fact, I'm just going to copy-paste a post I made on GWO on a topic about "well designed" skills:

Quote:

I personally disagree with the designation of proactive skills that require thought as "well designed". Look at MtG. There are plenty of cards in every set that are inefficient, cumbersome, weird, or just plain not tournament caliber; the majority of new cards are never included in a serious tournament deck, in fact. That does not mean that these cards are not well designed, just that they are not designed with efficiency and tournament play in mind. They are perfectly well designed, however, from a lore perspective (Vampiric Bite), or from the point of view of a causal player having fun with oddball cards (Illusionary Weaponry), or from the point of view of a player who enjoys taking ridiculous looking cards and making a viable combo out of them (Signet of Illusions), or simply from the point of view of a player who likes to see big numbers and flashy effects in combat, even if it's inefficient (Meteor Shower). These are not just valid ways to design a card, they are equally valid as designing a card for tournament play.

So, while I agree with the spirit of this thread, I really don't agree with labeling these cards the "best designed" cards in GW. Meteor Shower is damn fun to cast on a group of foes, and if the goal of design isn't to create a fun environment to play in, I don't know what is.

In conclusion: if it's not affecting the meta in any significant way, stop raging about it. It's akin to yelling at an 8 year old for playing Pokemon when there are deeper RPGs available.

Morphy · Jun 08, 2010, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

There are spam skills in every profession though. Why is it such a big deal that a sin can make a weak, bad, spammy build, when you can do the same damn thing with a warrior, derv, or indeed any other physical class? Again, the only reason that there is ever any reason to complain about these skills is if they do an undue amount of damage/disruption/protection/whatever for the effort (or lack thereof) put into the build. Beyond that, let bad players have their bad builds.

Not every skill is designed with high-end PvP in mind, remember that. In fact, I'm just going to copy-paste a post I made on GWO on a topic about "well designed" skills:

In conclusion: if it's not affecting the meta in any significant way, stop raging about it. It's akin to yelling at an 8 year old for playing Pokemon when there are deeper RPGs available.

/shrug, maybe I got dragged into Perfect Balance a bit too much. From a balance perspective, these skills are obviously flawed but I see where you're coming from. Minor flaw in your Pokemon analogy, though: the 8 year old doesn't force you to play along, facing JS/FF in PvP does.

Fahhhh · Jun 09, 2010, 01:11 AM // 01:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

/shrug, maybe I got dragged into Perfect Balance a bit too much. From a balance perspective, these skills are obviously flawed but I see where you're coming from. Minor flaw in your Pokemon analogy, though: the 8 year old doesn't force you to play along, facing JS/FF in PvP does.

Well spamming has its consequences just as any other strategy does. Spamming is easy to interrupt/Divert/predict.

This game has never been perfectly balanced and never will be. To hope it will be is kinda silly really. And I stand by the fact that the skills are not OP or even that commonly run anymore, I'm fairly sure at least. If you have a problem with the mechanic behind them the solutions pretty simple: don't use those skills.

Bobby2 · Jun 09, 2010, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fahhhh

Well spamming has its consequences just as any other strategy does. Spamming is easy to interrupt/Divert/predict.

In defense of OP, I have to say that interrupting JS/FF is very difficult against an astute Sin. Same with Diversion, since they can just rip it off for the mere cost of 5e and 3s.

That said I don't think these skills warrant immediate attention, they're really not that powerful.

HigherMinion · Jun 09, 2010, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Right... The amount of times I laid Psychic Distraction against Jagged is priceless; most sins are shutdown apart from their autoattacks.... People must be really bad if they can't beat an assassin. And to say it's not balanced it really, really stupid. You're basically asking for a class that Anet did NOT create.

Vlad S · Jun 13, 2010, 09:06 PM // 21:06

I'm not sure if you have noticed, but anet has been killing the assassin builds for a long time already.
If they nerfed fox fangs and jagged strike...
Well, they just killed a lot of assassins and they basically made the small r/a population extinct.

Luminarus · Jun 14, 2010, 10:33 AM // 10:33

I have to admit, they arent that bad. A decent monk can survive them easy enough, its wen you face that and like an edenial mesmer or a hex pressure necro that the damage reaches the point if being detrimental. But its no worse then a good warrior, or like a MB ele.

Btw, I luv shield bashing jagged!

headlesshobbs · Jun 14, 2010, 02:17 PM // 14:17

I personally prefer the current build compared to other skills recovering 8sec or more plus requirements... Sounds like you really want to take the fun out of my game.

edit: Gee Morphy, are you the only one who's gonna be dead set on killing these builds? It sure looks that way.

Shayne Hawke · Jun 15, 2010, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Thread purged. Let's keep it friendly.

Morphy · Jul 16, 2010, 11:38 AM // 11:38

In the light of the recent metagame developments, I believe this topic is again relevant. As expected, the builds are featured in an Sway set-up: http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Team_-_R/A_Sway. For the love of meow, nerf all aspects of this horrible gimmick build, that includes the Primary attribute independency of Ritualist heals (making it ideal for secondary abuse), the spirits that don't affect Weapon Spells and other Ritualist skills and the ridiculously mindless spam-on-recharge combo.

Lanier · Jul 16, 2010, 12:38 PM // 12:38

kinda off topic from from a pve standpoint, i would like to see the 1/2 second removed to balance fox fangs out with wild strke better. Nothing to do with HA gimmicks i know but figured i would mention my opinion.

Morphy · Jul 16, 2010, 12:44 PM // 12:44

Tbh, Wild Strike and Golden Fang strikes can potentially be as much of a problem as JS/FF, the whole pressure Assassin idea is just mindless spam :/.

headlesshobbs · Jul 16, 2010, 12:49 PM // 12:49

I just see it as a fun build for getting duals going, how is that such a problem?

Morphy · Jul 16, 2010, 12:57 PM // 12:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by headlesshobbs

I just see it as a fun build for getting duals going, how is that such a problem?

It's a mindless build that contradicts the very core of Guild Wars fundamentals, skill over skills. In other words, it's a broken piece of shit that won't ever be balanced and is causing unnecessary problems. "Fun" seems to be an excuse that many people use for abysmal skills such as these, much the same for items in Super Smash Bros. I honestly don't understand how mindless builds like these can be considered fun and I understand even less why you're so egoistic that you're willing to spoil other people's fun because you want to keep this shit in the game so badly. Playing with or against this build is boring and requires not a single piece of thought.